Church and State 1.0

First off the reason I am writing this is because in my last post. I was not able to clearly define what I meant by separation of The Church and The State. I did not realize this until I had an opportunity to talk to several individuals who made me realize this. So because of these chats I have had I am going to try and give it another go. See if I can get the point across that I had originally wanted to convey. So hopefully I am able to get my full complete view on this matter across to you.

To start I think I need to start at the beginning of where we as in the United States was founded and what principles we were founded on pertaining to this subject. The groups of people that first colonized the Americas after it was discovered were mainly groups of people that wanted religious freedom. Up until that point almost every government in Europe had a State sponsored religion. These groups didn't agree with the specific teaching of that sponsored religion. So they came to America to believe as they wanted. Then when our government was set up and we won independence from our ties to Europe we set up a government that did not have a state sponsored religion. I called this separation of Church and State I believe this is the most basic form of it. In my previous post I was really in my mind only addressing this issue. The problem is I failed to realize that this statement covers a much larger area of problems for many people.

So I'm going to go over slightly what I said before and add some to it as well as try and cover the other aspects that I missed. First off I believe that we cant have a state sponsored religion for mainly two reasons. They are very simple I think all except extremists could agree on them. The first is goes back to why the majority of original pioneers came to America. This is because we have many different religions in our country. It would not be fair to force one belief system on every person. I could go into more detail on this but I think that this statement sums it up.
Secondly the other reason is I don't want a religious group to have control over the government. The reason why is, I think man is corrupt when put into positions of power. Now this could be said for leaders in government positions. Here is the difference between the two in my mind. Almost every religion I have known or studied has said that you have to go on faith to get to heaven. In my mind this means not questioning the scriptures or your religious leaders. In a government leaders are and should always be questioned as to why they do things it may not keep leaders from going corrupt but it does at the very least minimize what they can do without being put out of power. That is the difference for me. This is what I was trying to cover in my original post.

Now moving on to the aspects of what I failed to mention. There are large groups of people in this country that think that the term separation of the church and state means taking out every single symbol and phrase that refers to God from every form of government. I personally don't believe that this is what this phrase means. I see these religious symbols not as a representation of what we all believe but as a representation of the history and tradition of this country's origins. Its kind of like a sports team. A team is usually proud of what they have accomplished so they put up their trophy's they have won and the put up newspaper articles about themselves. To show where they came from and what they have over come. Now other members that join the team later don't have to agree with the methods used to attain those victory's. They can still respect the fight that the team went though to get where they are now. Regardless of wither its what they believe the team needs now. Its the teams heritage and that should never be forgotten. Its more a representation of history then a religious view.

Going back to what I said earlier about religious leaders in government positions. I need to clarify a few items at this point. I have no problem with a very religious man filling a government position. This individual can be as religious as they want. However, they cannot ask the people to blindly follow their choices based on their faith. Every decision they make has to be evaluated to make sure the majority of people agree with it.

I believe I have covered what I view as religion in government. Now I want to clarify what other people may consider religious laws but I just define as morals laws. There are certain laws that our government and other governments enforce. These laws follow a set of morals or ethics that coincide with what many religions teach. Here is the principle of what I think these laws are based on. If the action of one infringes on the rights of another then it is morally wrong. These basic laws I think should never be changed such as murder, theft, rape, and slavery ect... They are very clear cut. These laws very much go along with what the ten commandments state. There original source may even be the Ten Commandments ,but regardless of the source they follow the principle that I stated earlier. At this point it doesn't matter if they were a commandment or not because by violating them you are violating the rights of others.

Now I do understand that morals vary by time, place, and people which is a long way of saying culture. So I have to divide morals into two different sets. The first I just explained, im going to call it Governing Morals. The second is much more complex I'm going to call it Culture Morals. It could be argued that any action taken would infringe on the rights of others. This is where Culture Morals come into play. Ill give an example in Italy it is not illegal to take someones possessions as long as you do not take it by force. So pickpocketing is legal you wont go to jail for it. In the states it is considered stealing and you will go to jail. Are either of these laws not ethical? In my mind because of where I grew up I would not think of pickpocketing as ethical. However, none of the Italians I have met and asked about this law have a problem with it. They say your not hurting anyone, and if you cant keep a hold of your money its your problem. So at this point Id like to tell you about my next stage in the process. So first you check and see if it infringes on the rights of others. Then if a solution cannot be made It has to go to what the majority of people in the area thinks is moral. For example a county passes a law that there not going to sell alcohol after 9pm. It could be argued that this law infringes on the rights of those people in the county that want to purchase alcohol after this time. If the majority of people in that county don't think its right to sell after 9pm then that law should be respected. It has nothing to do with where those individuals in the county got the idea that its wrong. It could have been church it doesn't matter because the majority feels that it is the moral thing to do. It could go the other way as far as gambling is concerned. If the majority of people in a state feel that lottery is a good program and have no morals against it. Then it should be respected by the rest of the population in that area. The thing is with Culture Morals they only work at a local level. What one town feels is right my be different from the next and what one county thinks is right may be different from the surrounding county's and it goes up to state, country, and then world. Its kind of like on google maps the zoom button. What I am getting at with this is, not every law needs to apply on every level. Some laws are fine if the inhabinets of that area agree with it. In short the majority of the population rules when it comes to Cultural Morals.

I have to quickly cover one last area. If you go to a global scale and say that Al-Qaeda and the Taliban believe it is morally right to kill individuals from western cultures and there is a big enough group of individual saying that this is right. Are they right to kill those people? Well just like Culture Morals Governing Morals do apply at a global scale. The majority of the world doesn't think that this is moral but even if they did that directly affects the rights to live of a western cultured people. Just a quick example to show how I think it applys at a global level.

What I have described above is what takes place in lawmaking with a few minor deviations. First off we are a republic so not everyone is going to vote on every law. We elect individuals that make the laws for us according to those who elected them. Which is the majority of the people that elected them. Then this basic process that I described takes place. You check the law to see if it goes against the Governing Morals then if you cant make a decision based on that you move on to Culture Morals.

That is the way I see the system. Now I think its a good system every system has its faults but overall this one works. This is how I understand the separation of Church and State and how our values and morals apply to it. I again employ you that if you disagree with my point of view to explain to me why. So I can see it though another persons eyes because I know I haven't hit this subject right on the head. I know I am missing pieces. If you dont have an account id appreciate you making one even if its only to respond.

Church and State

So I was working the other day I was a turret gunner in my HUMVEE and we working really long hours... All were doing is sitting there watching and waiting till we can go home the problem is that you get really tired in there with all your gear. Obviously, you cant sleep so to stay awake I started bringing up controversial subjects to talk about.
We started talking about the United States Government and religion I was asking people in the Humvee about their views different politics and policy's and what they thought was right. The Humvee was predominately christian views but not necessarily the same christian views. We got on the subject of what really is wrong and right and what morals or values are and what defines them. The answer I got to my questions was the bible has all the answers. That if we follow the bible then that's what is moral and that is what God wants us to do. So then I decided that if they thought the bible was where all moral values come from then what did they think of separation of the Church and State. I don't know why my mind went to this end I was trying to stay awake. So they best way for me to do this is to cause an argument. Anyways I thought I knew what they were gonna say to this question I was trying to lead them into my next question but I was stunned and surprised. They answered that they thought that the government should run all of its policy's off what the bible has to say. I was shocked cause according to my knowledge of what this country was founded on it. I was pretty sure a separation of the Church and State was a big part of that. So after being taken aback slightly I posed my next question I asked if they thought that the bible principles supported the crusades way back when. I figured that clearly the crusades were just a reason to expand the might of the church. When I say might I mean money and power. At this point
I thought I had them I was sure of my impending victory.... Yet, to my amazement again they reasoned that crusades happened because God wanted it to happen that everything happens because God wanted it to happen. And then I got the never ending answer when somebody doesn't want to argue about things anymore. They said "you just cant question." that, "things that don't make sense you have to not think about." Anyways that's my story I was just surprised because I am a firm believer in the absolute and total separation of the church and state. I could have kept pushing the issue cause I had plenty more to say on the subject but the people I was talking to out ranked me by a bit so I figured it best not to get on there bad side because that could affect my immediate future. hahaha So I decided to right this blog and ask the question what does everyone else think on this subject. I really want to hear. So out of the couple of readers that will read this I know what probably half will say but I want to hear it anyway. That's all I got thanks for listening to my rant.

Bitter Sweet

This isnt a funny story or anything but I just wanted to tell about my first attempt at snowboarding. Well we rented our gear on base and drove up the mountain to Piancovallo. once we got there I was like crap I cant do this. I was hoping for an easy runn nothing to steep to learn on.... No such luck. The lifts went all they way up to the tallest peaks and all the way down the paths there was cliffs off the sides. Not only that once you got towarrds the bottom there was jumps,tricks and cars to jump over. Lets also get one thing straight when I say jumps I mean a pack of snow that if you hit it would launch you a good 15 to 20ft in the air. So ya...back to the stroy we got our gear on and my friends who have all snowboarded before picked the second tallest lift first. We rode the lift up and up for like 5 to 10 mins and then we got off which in itself is a difficult task. lets just say I never perfected it and I ended up on my butt or face everytime I got off a lift. We get to the first hill and it is really steep and I have no idea how to do a thing on this board. I get up start going down and face plant horribly. After that I get up I only went like 10 ft down the hill so I try agian this time I fall on my butt. So Im sitting on my butt trying to stand up and everytime I try the board starts to slide down the hill. I really didnt want to face plant again so I ended up going down that first hill on my butt sliding. I also forgot to mention that while im doing this all the italians and everyone else up on that mountain is laughing at me. Finally after trying agian and again on the next hill down I finally learn how to stop and control my speed. I know this is getting repatative so ill just say I was on my butt 80% of the day. By the end off the day we went up to the highest peak which was gorgeous we were looking down on the clouds it was breath takng. I made it down that run without too many incidents. On a side note there is a ski restaurant up in the mountain were the have fry sauce. It is my new favorite place in italy just for that and the best part is its free!!! Anyways there are my ramblings for the weekend

Rat Race!

Ok... Ive got a story I want to tell so here it goes mind you i am not the best writer so forgive me.


This Saturday I was pretty eventful 5 of my friends and I decided to go to Venice. So to start things off I couldn't find my camera before we left "unfortunately about 10 mins after we got back I found it which really makes me mad but o well on to the story". So we pack 6 of us into an old alfa romeo 5 seater and drive to the train station in Pordenone. Everything going great a little cold is the only downside. We get on the train and start on our way there. It takes us almost two and a half hours to get there because the train keeps stopping. Finally we make it there and were all starving because we haven't ate yet at all. So we start walking trying to find a place to eat and its getting colder and colder not to mention it snowed. So we find this Italian restaurant and we go inside to eat I got spaghetti and lemon cake and a sprite. My meal was really good I covered it in Parmesan cheese delicious. Pretty much everyone else got pizza and wine. I'm not going to name, names so my friend "John" downs a whole liter of wine by myself. So he has a pretty good buzz going on and hes really happy. So we finally pay for our meal which was about 246 dollars. Then we leave to go find St Marco Square so we can get pictures and see the sites all that good stuff. Anyways my friend john really has to go to the bathroom bad and he drunk so hes not processing everything quite right. Anyways were trying to find St. Marco square and we cant because Venice is like a giant maze. So we stop and ask some people where its at and there telling us. John decides to go find a bathroom and takes off by himself totally wasted. We finally find out where we want to go and then we realize john isn't here. So we decide to go look for him cuz he couldn't have made it far. We searched all of Venice for about 2 hrs looking for him. So to start off the search we are walking and looking plus we start calling his cell phone so we can figure out where he went. He doesn't answer for like 30 mins. finally when he does answer he tells us that he is by a restaurant and the hes trying to find his way back to where we were then all we hear on the phone is him say "O SHIT!" and then his phone went dead straight to his voicemail. All calls straight to his voicemail. So then were really trying to figure out what happened because during all the briefings they warn you about making yourself an easy target for terrorist or robbers. So we are looking for like another 45 mins and we finally decide the next carbinnari we see were gonna go tell the and ask for help. We figured three things happened he either dropped and broke his phone got in some kind of fight or he fell in the water. Finally we get this call from him. First of he sounds really sober and he tells us while he was talking to us he walked straight off into a canal. Then he tells us hes by hotel Gabrielli so we find out where that's at and walk for another half an hr trying to find it. Once we find it we go up to the door and it says its closed. So we start searching that whole area for him. So after about 20 more mins we get another call from him and we find out he said hotel Danielli. So we find that hotel he is sitting outside having a smoke. He tell us this guy gave him free clothes because his were all wet. The guy gave him free women's clothes he had on tight girl jeans a nice brown v neck shirt that showed almost his whole chest clearly a women's shirt and pantyhose on for socks. I think he was still a little drunk. And don't forget its still like maybe 15 degrees outside. In the end we found a hotel and spent the night. That its self is another story but ya I don't know if I should keep going there for fun or stop because somebody might get hurt. well that's my trip to Venice.

Family

Im new to writing blogs so here it goes. Well I want to start with the one thing in my life that means the most to me. That is of course my family. I recently left my family for about 6 months. Whoever said you don't know what your missing until you lose it was right. Sure I had fun but when I was finally able to come back home I realized I missed out on so much I wanted to be a part of. I just wanted to say I could not ask for a better or more supporting family. I am going to miss all of them very much when I leave. Sorry this post is so short Ill get better I am sure.